Forum

[jefrs]

Well I'm coming to DennisC's opinion that the new bikes are being sent out badly set up.

The stock ECU map is poor and lumpy. My original OEM HT cap was not screwed into the HT lead which of course caused poor sparking on the WR7DDC4. Proper non-resistor cap replacement (requires "R" type plug). The CGT's plug is the ever-so slightly hotter WQR8DC, both this and the WR7DDC4 are equivalent to the NGK BPR6ES. I just happen to have some BPR5ES from an old car (Nova?) and the BPR6ES is prolly the lawnmower. The indian plugs look poorly made.

The soft soot is gone or going. I do not mean normal hard blackening. This soot appeared when sparks went missing. The BPR6ES is now the 'right' colour so that does appear to be the right plug for the EFI-500. It's not missing now and the soft soot is going, my conclusion is missing sparks caused sooting from unburnt fuel. Plug gap appears to be important, too small a gap didn't fire right, 0.7-0.8mm seems to be correct (as per handbook). The 0.020-in gap stated elsewhere is wrong for this engine; the electronic system produces a big fat spark. I can go maybe four years without even looking at spark plugs in the car so I hope this is the last time I have to look at the sparks on the bike now I've fixed it.

I replaced the silencer because I didn't like the look of the original towing a log one, have you felt the weight of them? That produces a small issue with the mix so I added the K&N which then needs the PCv. The PCv actually does its job well. The O2/Lambda does practically nothing in the first place so it's no loss. There is a wide-range sensor for the PCv but requires a larger 'bung' welded into the pipe, I'm not too bothered.

It shouldn't need aftermarket to make it work as it should in the first place but there you are, soot and sparks sorted.

[jefrs]

Btw putting Redex through is/was to get rid of the soot, old decoke dodge which works, not needed when running right.

[nigelphoto]

Jeff, unfortunately Redex does absolutely nothing in your engine except to absorb your cash - it certainly can't remove any soot from the exposed plug threads. Read any technical site on the internet and you will learn that the chemicals which might just be able to 'decoke' an engine are banned from sale to the public under health and safety legislation and would have to be used in such strong concentrations that they would quickly melt away any fuel lines and half the brass fittings in the injector body! I'm afraid that I completely disagree with you that the EFI engine is 'set up wrong' by Eicher; it is set up extremely accurately to meet the very stringent US and Japanese emissions legislation (and the less stringent EU ones) under a wide variety of conditions. A brief search on the net from a wide range of different reputable sources will provide ample evidence that there is a strong argument in favour of the accumulation of soot being a result of the utterly crap petrol we are being served up nowadays. Herewith just a few examples - “Plug end threads will tend to be sooty with modern fuels, as long as the core nose and electrodes are tan/brown then everything is fine”. . . “Sooty plugs is quite common these days, as is the exhaust tail pipe” . . . “Modern fuel is dreadful quality in one respect, it goes 'off' in just over 10 days and starts to lose octane rating. The petrochemical geeks used to get 26% petrol from a barrel of oil, that is now closer to 70% due to fancy cracking methods and chemicals”. . . “Modern fuel goes bad after about 30 days. It goes very bad after 90, having lost the "lighter" elements. This could well account for poor fuel air mixing and incomplete combustion. Incomplete combustion results in soot” . . . “Components in the fuel may form chemically aggressive deposits on the spark plug, affecting its operating characteristics” . . . “The deposits resulting from the combustion process, such as soot, carbon residues or ash from the fuel and oil additives, will, under certain conditions, build up and conduct electricity, causing the engine to misfire” . . . “I have a 1973 Commando and know of four others that soot up with dry black soot” . . Answer “Yes it can be the fuel - lots of reports of Oz fuel causing this”. Jeff, I believe your EFI is quite new?? If its as bad as you say then take it back to the dealer and get him to plug it into the computer and get a read out of the fuelling throughout the rev range which will show you if it is working correctly. However, I doubt he'll want to know if you've tinkered with it by changing the ECU/Air filter/exhaust and whatnot . . . . I'd suggest you return it to standard and just enjoy riding it!!

[Dennis C]

"Well I'm coming to DennisC's opinion that the new bikes are being sent out badly set up"

Now hold on a moment I retracted that statement after reading back over other posts about what you have done to your bike, also it would seem that others who have left them alone are quite happy with the bike's and not having problems.

Bikes with electronic engine management systems are in a different ball park to carburated bike's when it comes to home tuning, the only way that will work correctly is with setting up on a Dyno by an expert with the correct equipment, or uploading proven maps to the ECU. Amateurs meddle at their peril, keep putting hotter plugs in and sooner or later you will melt a hole in the piston, I guess that would be the bike makers fault as well.

Among my bikes I have a Triumph Sprint ST for which I have obtained the required equipment to tune it myself but I wouldn't consider using any maps other than the genuine tuning maps supplied by Triumph.

[PeteF]

Interesting comments Nigel. People keep telling me that petrol "goes off" quickly these days but I seem to be blessed with good stuff from my local Morrison's. The Bullet usually stands all winter with petrol in it, as does the Cub, the Honda and the Yam. In the shed are seven engines of various types and sizes (lawnmower, scarifier, strimmer, pressure washer, chainsaw, great big Lambardi grass topper, water pump) I also care for 3 outboards of various makes. All these engines routinely stand for up to four months without starting and I have never had (much) problem starting any of them. Granted, they sometimes run not quite up to par until fresh fuel is used ( but this has often sat in a can over winter) but you'd hardly notice.
Go figure! as the Americans say.

[nigelphoto]

Pete - I wouldn't put anything other than Esso Supreme (97 RON) in my Classic 500 since thats the only petrol supplied to the UK market which doesn't contain bi-ethanol (unless you live in an area served by Fawley refinery such as W Wales and SW, in which case its E05). All other suppliers in this country put E05 into Premium grade and E010 in Standard (i.e. 95RON or less). 'Going off' in this context means that it looses RON and therefore has a greater tendency to pre-ignition and is more likely to create particulate hydrocarbon deposits (aka soot) but certainly would still run even if it was 2-3 years old. I also gather that petrol supplied in the USA is inferior to that in the EU, although caution is needed in interpreting the relative RON numbers as their scale is some 5-6 pts less than our equivalent.

[Trev]

Even though I'm more of leave it as it is and ride it sort of guy I love reading this stuff, keep it coming.
I run a 2008 efi with short more open silencer partly cos I hoped it would free another half a pony but mainly because the original silencer is out on it's own for title of ugliest motorcycle silencer ever made (love Jefs 'towing a log' comment), also added a K&N when first serviced the bike. I tried an Iridium plug as part of the service but made it more difficult to start from cold on the kick so even though I couldn't tell any real difference when riding it I so went back to original BP7ES plug. I did do a plug chop (old habits die hard) and it looked sooty around the edges but so do most of my other modern bikes plugs (or at least the ones I can be bothered to look at!) so not too bothered. Will try a BPR6Es when I think this plug needs replacing but could be decades yet ; )

[PeteF]

Well Nigel, most of my engines wouldn't pre-ignite if you gave them paraffin
But the Honda and the Yam probably would and, to be fair, they DO run a bit better on "best"
As regards ethanol, I'm sure Morrisons standard stuff has its fair share in the mix but once again, I've never had a problem with it (but then I don't have any lined or GRP tanks)

[Scalyback]

[center]
Sorry, I think I might have skipped a page?



Who is winning this one at the moment?

[ric]

A KLG FE85p discovered behind a Cotswold stone wall is moving up fast on the BPR6ES - it's anyones guess as to where this is plug thread is going ...