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By Norm
#4601
It is many years since I looked at this situation but Speed Dog Racing are having pump spindle problems and I have suggested fitting an Electra timing cover to a cast iron engine.I investigated this a long time ago but didn't go any further with it, but from memory my thoughts were to build up inside the timing cover with weld so that the oil hole that doesn't line up could be then re drilled to suit the cast iron cases. This has to be moved by about 20mm. Then my thoughts were to either make a new worm nut with a spigot on the end so it could run into the oil seal in the timing cover, this I think would be easier than machining the Electra timing cover to take a quill bolt. Another probably simpler idea would be to use Electra cases, Hitchcocks crank and a modified worm nut as I described above. Anybody have any thoughts or ideas on this. Paul?
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By Adrian
#43466
Hi Norm, what a treat, another hybrid engine question! I'm assuming your boys are using a metric crankshaft and crankcases to suit, and that their racing regs allow later bits to be fitted in their class...



If I may refer back to my recent (and rather drawn out) explanation of my classic/AVL bitsa, probably the easiest way forward for this is to use a late set of classic Bullet crankcases, as the timing side casting has the alloy "blobs" in place to match the scavenge oilways on both classic and AVL timing covers, which ones got drilled depended on whether the engine was to be an AVL or Classic.



Image



From the picture there are two oilways involved, the lower oilway for the scavenge side is already in the right place for either timing cover, it is 1 and 2 in the picture we need to concern ourselves with. 1 is the original oilway for the classic cover, this is drilled and tapped for 6mm and a home-made(!) slotted grub screw is Loctited into place, the top flush with the joint face, and not too long in order not to block off the vertical oilway underneath. At 2, you simply drill through to reach the vertical oilway which leads to the rocker feed, using an AVL timing cover gasket as a guide. The crankcase in the picture was an older one with an extra blob of alloy weld added in the correct position.



There is a bit of a trap for the unwary here, owing to the increased volume of the AVL gear pumps compared to the earlier plunger versions, and attendant wet-sumping issues. Namely if the scavenge oilways are at all restricted the wet-sumping will become an issue, whereas on an Electra-X, if everything is hunky-dory (yes, I know...) any wet sumping is usually cleared immediately the engine starts. Paul was aware of this when fettling my ASBO 12 engine and drilled out all the crankcase oilways to 5mm improve the flow.



This leaves the classic timing side crankshaft needing an oil feed. Perhaps you could braze a steel tube into the crankshaft end and grind it to the correct size for the oil seal in the AVL timing cover or get a custom timing side shaft made if the classic and AVL timing side shafts are not interchangeable.



The timing cover may need further work depending on the type of ignition and cam spindles used. If it's a crank-mounted CDI racing system you can just remove the idler pinion spindles fron the crankcase,and if the contact breaker/magneto hole is already blocked off, fine. If there is a magneto or contact breaker drive in use, both the alloy bosses in the timing cover will need finishing to fit over the idler pinion spindles and the pinons themselves. If the engine has adjustable cam spindles that's proably it, ther timing cover can now be properly fitted. If the engine is using fixed cam spindles, these are 5/8" O/D at the timing cover end insted of the adjustables' 15mm, so you will have to drill/ream out the timing cover to accommodate these.



All that then remains is to make sure the oil is flowing through the rockers freely. The downside with the late cases is the lack of pressure relief valve which the old ones had next to the 1/8" BSP union for the rocker feed. With the extra volume of oil from the AVL gear pumps it might be worth reinstating that or fitting our hosts' rocker feed PRV.



I think that's everything...



A.
By Norm
#43467
Thanks Adrian, I will print that out as I will have to study it in detail. When I built mine I used Bullet flywheels and fitted the Electra drive and timing shafts to these wheels, they needed a 2.5mm spacer behind the shafts because the Electra wheels are thicker and I had to bore the timing side wheel out to take the Electra timing shaft. Apart from that it was a fairly straight forward transformation. I did fit a pressure gauge to the rocker feed so I could monitor the oil being pumped up top through the Bullet rockers which I had opened up a bit but this was not a problem, peaked out max at 40psi from a cold start, then dropped down once the oil had cleared from the sump (a few minutes) and then it just hovered around the 5/10lb from memory whilst riding
By Norm
#43469
I'll be buggered Adrian, it is probably 7 years since I was looking at this idea and I thought it was the feed hole that didn't line up, so dam simple when I see that it is in that scavange pump line, how good is that
By Norm
#43470
Ok Adrian another question, how did Paul make the spigot on the end of the timing shaft because you have fitted an Electra worm nut which you would have to do
By Norm
#43623
Adrian, I can answer my own question, Paul obviously did what I did, fitted an Electra timing shaft to the Bullet flywheels, too simple, don't know why I thought he had come up with some other mod, sometimes you just look too far ahead and miss the simple things
By Bullet Whisperer
#43624
Sorry, Norm, but apart from enlarging the oil passageways through the crankcases and assembling the engine last time, Adrian is the expert here. Anything else I could offer here would be pure speculation. Regards, Paul.
By Norm
#43625
Thanks Paul, I assumed this handywork was of your doing, the plot thickens, I love seeing what creative ideas others can get up too
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By Adrian
#43626
It was actually Henry Price who built the engine to start with at my request, I played with it a bit, which resulted in a bit of extra work for Paul to sort out (!) as well as his trademark AVL squish band tuning work, the oilway enhancement, the extra breather, the mag re-seating, etc... I am not an expert, but I am blessed to have been introduced to the right people.

The crankshaft on mine is actually an Electra-X crank with a rebuilt big end (sleeved con-rod, Alpha Bearings pin), not a modified classic crankshaft. It fits the metric bearing classic cases just fine, though Henry did machine the timing side for a wider roller bearing to toughen things up a bit. As far as I can remember the oil pump worm is standard Bullet without the neoprene seal, it fits straight on the Electra-X mainshaft, though perhaps I should have ordered one specifically for the Electra-X. I shall sit down with my combined parts book for retired models and compare part numbers over a coffee later on.

The other advantage with the classic Bullet crankcases, as we have already discussed, is that you get to use proper cam followers, not the skimpy AVL version which you do not want anywhere near a race engine!

For what it's worth, specials builders out there, a UCE top end is supposed to be quite an easy graft onto an AVL bottom end, so therefore a UCE top end onto a set of classic crankcases shouldn't be too much harder, someone impress me and build it, extra points for a working SR1 magneto!!! :o)

Regards,

A.

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