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By Les H
#1218
Here is a tip regarding kick starting. We all know how to position the piston just passed TDC aided by using the decompressor. I don't usually have any trouble with the 500 Bullet, however, after rebuilding a high compression short stroke engine recently, I was still getting severe kickback using this method even though the timing was spot on. It occurred so often that I was starting to get too scared to attempt starting the bike as the massive violent kickbacks were starting to damage my knee joint. After some thinking and testing, I discovered that if I continued the full kickstart swing just passed TDC (my normal start position) and then continued slowly down right through the full range to the bottom, there was not another position that the compression TDC position occurred again thus requiring quite a bit more flywheel rotation to get the piston there. You have to remember that from the TDC start position the engine has to spin fully two revolutions to get back to the firing position. In my case I believe what was happening is that as I kicked down, the flywheels spun up but then as my effort stopped at the full swing position, the flywheel still had over half a revolution to go before it could hit full compression and travel passed the firing position. Having an HC piston and superb compression, with the new bore and piston, the flywheels did not have enough inertia to fully meet the effort required on the compression stroke so it was caused to slow down again before the ignition point was reached. The insufficient momentum at this point could not cope with the fuel ignition and consequently the piston was driven back down 4 out of 5 times rather than continue over TDC much to the suffering of my leg and nerves. So, after easing the piston over TDC, I continued to push the kick start slowly down to a new stopping point and made a note of that position. Then releasing the decompressor, and fully returning the kickstart to the top, I slowly continued to move the kickstart down to its full extent. After several tests, I found a start position that would allow the 2nd TDC position to be felt just before the end of the kickstart travel. My thinking was that if I could accelerate the flywheels and piston continuously up to the firing point, the piston would have far less chance of kicking back due to insufficient piston speed and to my joy…it works. Not once did it kick back and most times I can get the engine to fire up first time. So, just to go over the method: Find TDC as per normal with the decompressor but take it further and note the final kickstart position. Return kickstart to the top…Then release the decompressor and check that the SECOND TDC position can be reached just before the end of the kickstart swing. Make a note of the post-TDC setting position and use it every time you kickstart....noting that the kick-starting is done from the top…not the initial setting position. Hope you can understand the method as it would seem likely to work well for other High compression bikes or engines with big bore kits especially the 612cc versions. It might also be useful with standard Bullet engines if you have slight problems with your kick starting strength. Give it a try; it might help if you are having lots of kickbacks (ignition correctly adjusted) certainly worked for me!
By Howard 612
#17821
Sounds great Les. Very sound reasoning. I have had a few nasty kickbacks from the 612, so I will definitely give it a try next time I go out. As well as protecting our legs, this will give our engines an easier life as well. I think Velo Thruxton owners employ a similar technique.
By Beezabryan
#17822
Thank you Les. I use the same but last time I suggested it on another site I was greeted with disdain.. was for that reason I did not mention it earlier on the latest sprag posting
By Les H
#17825
Cheers Howard and Bryan for managing to read though my post....I hadn't realised how many times I had repeated how to do it :(
By Riggers
#17833
Hi Les. I'm really interested in this and have read through your post time and time again but my pea brain just can't quite get it. I'm confused about terms like 'a new stopping point', (is this any old stopping point or the compression stroke?) and 'check that the second post TDC position can be reached'. Funnily enough I may have achieved starting my bike by your method by sheer luck. My Classic has always been relectant to wake up (especially after a long spell asleep), and by simply experimenting it fired up like a gun! The annoying thing is I can't repeat what I did!!! I CAN find a second compression stroke at the bottom of the kick start travel, but I'm not sure where I go from there. If I check the 'second position can be reached before the end of the kick start swing' haven't I simply returned the engine to TDC again and am I not back to square one? I'm sorry to be such a thickie but I'm defo missing something.
By Arch Stanton
#17834
Riggers,

I think Les is referring to the fact that there is a TDC on a none compression stroke as well, not spinning the motor all the way back to the original one we normally use and that, being that bit further on in the cycle, the momentum doesn't have to last as long. Clearly you need to know the second position as it won't work from BDC. No doubt Les will correct me if I've misunderstood.

Cheers

Arch
By Riggers
#17835
Hi Archie and Les. Yes I'm understanding the theory now - kick the bike off from TDC on the exhaust stroke. I've been experimenting by simply moving the motor further on from 'normal' and it seems to work. I apologise to Les for not quite getting his method of precisely finding this position (and I still don't but I'm working on it!). I don't understand why, having moved the motor on a bit (the 'new stopping point?') from TDC on compression, you would return the KS to the top of its stroke and then slowly move it all the way down to the bottom before using it to start the engine proper. Why not move the motor to the 'new stopping point' and then simply swing the KS? Please note I'm not trying to be 'clever' I'm trying to understand...
By Les H
#17836
Hi Riggers. Ok...let me explain a different way. What I am saying is that you need to go passed the normal compression TDC position a BIT MORE before returning the kickstart to the fully up position then kickstart as you do normally......... In normal practice you will probably take the engine just passed TDC by monitoring the points opening on the ammeter or simply by feeling for compression maximum. What I have found out is that (in my case) it is better to go passed TDC quite a bit more...about 7-8 o'clock position after TDC...THEN return the kickstart to the top of its stroke before kicking to start........ This allows the next firing position to actually be met at the bottom of the kickstart stroke with leg force before you reach the end of the kickstart stroke rather than have the flywheels reach that point un-aided...... My instructions were describing how to check that the new kickstart position AFTER TDC is sufficient to reach the 2nd TDC firing position before you run out of kickstart travel. Once you have found the best position, YOU DON'T GO THROUGH THE CHECK AGAIN...... You simply set the kickstart at the position you have found and set to memory, and as said it will probably be around 8-9 o'clock....then return kickstart to the top and attempt the start..... If this is still not clear try the following and forget the initial testing for position:.... 1) Pull in decompressor and find compression TDC, don't go much passed this point.......2) Return K/S to top and push K/S back down to horizontal position.....3) Return K/S to top........4)Release decompressor and kick start with some force....5) repeat process if engine has not started.....in practice it is easy to do but not so easy to explain...see how you get on... ATB.
By Les H
#17838
I've re-worded the first point and it makes more sense: .....1) Find TDC of compression stroke, Pull in decompressor and don't go much passed this position.......2) Return K/S to top and push K/S back down to horizontal position.....3) Return K/S to top........4)Release decompressor and kick start with some force....5) repeat process if engine has not started.
By Riggers
#17839
Thanks Les I've got it now mate. Like I said I'm sure I did this an hour or so ago by accident after reading your first post, and it definately worked! Now I know what to do I can replicate it and my bike is definately starting better. Sorry I was a bit slow on the uptake - nowt wrong with your description - you just happened to encounter the dunce at the back of the class!!!

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