By weedsy
#85298
Hi - I've been following various posts here on chaincase leaks and ATF - our hosts recommend using Dextron ATF in Bullet chaincases, but does this go for twins as well?
Clutch warnings are mentioned - "bronze" (no explanation why or which clutches are "bronze") and slip problems when using ATF with "friction modifiers" - so do I assume Dextron hasn't got any??
As to sealants, I've also been following the Velocette forum and various horror stories about wandering silicone causing serious lube problems - Wellseal (as sold by our hosts) seems to be the favoured choice - I would guess that any excess ending up in the chaincase stays there anyway? Any experience/tips out there please?
My bike has oil in there at the moment, and leaks - only slightly, but I would like to cure it as oddly, there aren't any others!
New gaskets and washers at the ready - advice on sealant and contents welcome . . . . .
#85300
ATF Ford type F has no friction modifiers, so that is suitable if you have clutch--slip problems.
For the gaskets; only smear the sealant on very thinly, wipe off any excess so it doesn`t get squeezed out when assembled.
More is not better.
By Andy C
#85301
I have been using ATF in motorcycle primaries for quite a few years and never sufered any clutch problems.

I think it is only the synthetic grades of oil that contain these "friction modifiers" - someone prove me wrong, so I would make sure that you use a non synthetic grade.

I am using some cheap "universal" ATF in the Bullet, and have not had any problems.

Regarding silicon sealant I avoid using it, especially where there is any change of it getting into an oilway - that is what causes most of the problems, all it takes is for some excess sealant to get into an oilway and block it to cause serious damage.

Wellseal is good stuff it is my gasket sealant of choice, just follow the instructions and you will not go far wrong.
#85303
Over about fifty years of working on various vehicles, my preferred method of "gasketry" is to stick the gasket to the item that is removable and slightly grease the other side, such as where the item bolts to an engine or gearbox. I use actual glue ("UHU" clear glue is good) in some situations, or gasket cement of a suitable type in others.

This gives a good seal and makes sure the gasket comes away cleanly when the item needs to be removed, rather than ripping into shreds and being a devil to scrape off. As the entire gasket comes off with the removable part, it is generally easier to remove it in one piece if necessary. Some items, such as water pumps on cars usually come off to be scrapped anyway - that makes the job even easier because the gasket gets thrown away, too.

I used this method on my 350 Bullet 'Electra' chaincase gasket. My bike has a proper gasket and a set of screws holding the outer cover on, rather than the usual 'o' ring and centre bolt. I stuck the gasket to the cover and lubricated the innards with ATF - it's not leaked at all after almost a couple of years and about 8,000 miles.
#85318
There are no oilways in the primary chaincase on a meteor in the same way as there are none on a bullet. It doesn't connect with the rest of the engine.

So use whatever gasket gloop you want I suppose. Not that I'm recommending it but you could probably squirt half a tube of RTV directly into the primary chaincase without causing any irreversible problems.

That said, my preferred flange sealant is Permabond A136 which remains liquid until compressed and smells pleasantly of red liquorice. Any excess/squeeze-out can be wiped away with a cloth and it remains liquid for days if the flange is not bolted up. Very easy stuff to work with.

Where is it leaking though? If it's leaking behind the front joint with the engine block, yes, a new gasket and judicious use of gasket goo. If it's leaking round the gearbox mainshaft, there's a felt seal behind the clutch and another one behind the chaincase.

If it's leaking round the join of the chaincase, there's a huge rubber o-ring all the way round.

The clutch friction plates are the same as used in the Indian bullets. I run ATF in both of my bullets. I do get some clutch slip but I think that's more a function of the inadequecies of the clutch design rather than the lubricant.
By weedsy
#85341
Thanks to all you guys for lots of useful info - many parallels with old car procedures - especially one-side gasket sealant - I used to use vaseline on the other side to avoid spending several hours (!) removing Healey water pumps; and I have used anaerobic sealants in certain applications, but baulk at the cost these days . . .
Right or wrong, here's my current thinking: Wellseal in very limited quantities, light spannering, new gaskets, tweak after an hour or so's running and hope for the best . . . I think the leak is limited to the outer chaincase seal.
Will probably use semi-synthetic ATF to try (I can drain the chaincase if I have clutch probs, someone has drilled and tapped the inner part and put a socket head capscrew in there - I assume for this purpose - but I haven't got the cover off yet and each discovery I make on this bike prepares me to believe anything . . . . )
I have survived Velo clutches (slip and drag at the same time a speciality) and Velo band type chaincases, so what do I have to fear from Enfields??
Cheers and thanks again, Weedsy
#85347
I now have to admit, I've just made an exception to my usual rule of "one side sealant, t'other side grease" on the chaincase gasket!

I removed the old one yesterday, to clean out the clutch on my 350, which was copying Weedsy's Velo "slip and drag" design.
The new gasket appears to have a graphite coat on one side. I fitted it plain, as an experiment. Unfortunately, the graphite side faces the outer cover. If it sticks to the inner face and rips next time, so be it; thankfully that side is flat and easy enough to clean.

I've also tried 10W/40 bike engine oil as a replacement for the toasty smelling ATF, which might be the cause of the clutch slip.
By weedsy
#85367
Just goes to show - nothing works for everybody, the same methods don't always produce the same results . . . . however, a mate came round yesterday and offered the best solution yet (given the various probs I currently have with my bike - as is always the case shaking down a new acquisition).
"Flog it and buy back your Classic Chrome" he said.
I have to say, I can see his point . . . I ran it for 4 years without problem, as a return to biking in general, and "old style" in particular (my first Velocette was just over 10 years old when I bought it, and I paid £250 for my Vincent Rapide)
Waiting for a parcel from our hosts reference other bodge-related issues, will post when the pile of bits is off the shelves and back on the bike . . . . .
By Marko
#85443
Recently thanks to a post by Stinkwheel I became aware of this stuff called Permabond A136. Last month I totally stripped & rebuilt my Connie & used the stuff, I am mightily impressed with it.

I'd strongly advise not to use any type of silicon gloop on a big twin. I made this mistake and used the stuff between the inner chaincase & crankcase; a small blob of the stuff had detached itself (probably from the area by one of the 3 tapped mounting holes for the chaincase) & got sucked up by the scavenge & then wedged itself in the timing cover drilling & blocked off the return pump. This was one of the reasons I decided to strip the engine.

The rubber O-ring in the primary cases does a good job, no need for any gloop whatsoever. An often overlooked culprit for a mysterious oil leak of the primary cases is the area back side (closest to engine) of the stud which holds the primary chain tensioner.

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