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More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:45 pm
by stinkwheel
So, having dumped my hopelessly worn Amal, I can now start my late model, classic engine, 350 bullet first kick again. I have been experimenting with a VM28 off a 500 bullet on it. Slow running is excellent but I think I'm going to have to experiment with a leaner needle jet/larger cutaway to get midrange to run right. But that's besides the point of todays question.



Due to cabin fever, I want to ride it tomorrow so I've put the original VM24 back on. It's set up to run pretty well on this (although I feel it's missing some top-end, hence fitting the larger amal in the first place and experimenting with the VM28, it's got a tuned head etc and a few other pokes).



When I got it, this bike had a PAV device which I blanked off and the carb was attached on the end of a veritable stack of spacers totalling one aluminium spacer plate (with the PAV nozzle in it), two plastic spacers, three paper gaskets and an o-ring. In other words, a huge number of oppertunities for an air leak. I also suspect this stack of slightly compressible plastic and card is in part responsible for warping of the carb manifold (now corrected).



I've just bolted the carb direct to the engine this time using the o-ring direct onto the head. Which is pretty much how the amal was attached. Seems to be working fine on a run around the block. However, here are a couple of questions:



Am I likely to run into heat transmission issues? Lookng at the parts book, earlier Indian bullets seemed to just attach the mikcarb direct to the head with a paper gasket. As time goes on, they seem to sprout increasingly more bits of plastic and metal between the carb and the engine? I also see the tunfoil heatproof spacers on our hosts website which makes me wonder if there is an issue here? (or is there just an issue in hot countries, I'm in Northern England).



I've used an o-ring rather than a paper gasket. Is this asking for trouble?



Just to confirm the overall effect of this change because I've removed a good 20+mm of spacers between the carb and the engine. A shorter inlet should move peak torque higher up the rev range yeah? So this should be good for road speeds but if I was to fancy offroading, fitting a spacer might be a plan so I get more torque at lower revs?

More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:07 pm
by papasmurf
You may need as scientific calculator:-

http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/may201 ... System.pdf

More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:24 pm
by Mark M
I would keep a heat proof (Tufnol) spacer in there. You can get them in various thicknesses, the minimum will do. There is a lot of heat transfer on Bullets and while it might not make a lot of difference in the type of weather we're having at the moment in summer temperatures it will make a difference. Slow running and stationary at lights for instance!

REgards, Mark

More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:15 am
by Blown265
GDay SW. A 20mm change in runner length on a mildly modified engine (approx 1hp/ci), will have zero effect on the power/rev range noticeable from the riders' seat. On a high rpm race motor, a small change can be optimised and measured on the dyno, and its effect can influence a lap/drag time, though the street though, it's imperceptible. You'll achieve more distinguishable gains from the difference in carb size and correct mixtures, than any change in inyake or exhaust length.. Regards Paul.

More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:21 am
by Blown265
Edit **...though on the street...**

More carburettion questions. Inlet length.

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:49 am
by Presto
Just for the fun of it sometime ago I needed to discover the theory behind this question. And though I’m pretty sure of these details I’m not going to guarantee any of my findings!



The formula for calculating the required length of an intake (from bellmouth end to valve seat) is L=aC/RPM


a= wave speed (speed of sound) = 346 M/s @ 25°C, 343 M/s @ 20°C, 340 M/s @ 15°C

C= 8900 1st Harmonic

6600 2nd Harmonic

5150 3rd Harmonic

4150 4th Harmonic


For example: 345 (Speed of sound @ 22°C) x 5150 (3rd harmonic) / 7000 (RPM) = 253.82mm (approx 10")


Tuning to the 1st harmonic gives the greatest effect, each subsequent harmonic has reduced effect.

Length of intake increases with lower rpm figures.

Using the 1st harmonic will often give an impossibly long intake.

Using short bellmouths will have no effect unless intake tract is extended.


Bullet 350/500 tuned to 4th harmonic (from valve seat to carb mouth approx 170mm)

343 x 4150 / 5000 rpm = 284mm from bellmouth to valve seat (i.e. 4 inch bellmouth)

343 x 4150 / 4000 rpm = 355mm

343 x 4150 / 3000 rpm = 474mm


Tuning a Bullet to the 2nd harmonic would require a bellmouth of 282mm or 11 inches!