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[Modern_Day_Rocker]

Hello all!

My 2004 Iron Barrel specifications.

Accralite 535cc +20 piston. Fresh rings bed in. 160psi compression test.
Alloy Barrel.
Hitchcocks competition valve kit.
PricePart "R" Cams
Ported and polished head and seats opened up for oversize inlet valve.
Samrat Rockers and Hitchcocks push rods.
Pazon Electronic Ignition.
Mikuni TM32 flat slide jetted spot on.
Special fabricated airbox with built in tuned length velocity stack and 4in K&N Filter.
Hitchcocks oversize oil pump discs and spindle kit.
Port matched stepped header and straight through baffle short bottle silencer with fibreglass wool packing.
5 plate Clutch Upgrade kit.
19 tooth front sprocket.

PricePart R cams the cranking compression tested 160psi.
Stock Indian cams tested at 170psi.



Goal for this build is to have a nice mildly cammed tourer with a power delivery aimed between 2000 to 5000rpm/ mid range to top end for nice highway cruising. There's lots of open straight flat 100kmh/62mph speed roads in my area. But it still has to behave in town too.

My question is what are the power characteristics of the 200180 performance cams?

I tried the 90023 Hi Performance cams but couldn't get them to behave well enough for street use. Upon installing the 90023 cams it lost a lot of cranking compression from 165psi down to 120psi. To set the bike to idle, the rpms would "hang" when cracking the throttle or de-acceleration it would pull into corners, to set it not to "hang" it wouldn't idle, which would be done by screwing out the idle screw, so you'd be constantly be blipping the throttle. Jetting of the Pilot circuit had very little affect.

To improve the slow speed/ idle vacuum. I removed the base gasket and installed a 3-way pinion gear to the advanced setting which helped. Bumped the cranking compression to 145psi.
Didn't make the idle problem go away, just made it smaller.
Also these cams would have a lot of reversion if ridden around calmly in town around 3000rpm, it would fill the airbox up with fuel and exhaust vapor eventually turning the filter grey. These cams didn't start coming to life until 3500rpm. But they were a lot of Fun!

So at present the bike is jetted perfectly to the PricePart "R" cams with the Mikuni TM32 and use of a AFR gauge at a healthy 12.2 to 12.5 AFR at all throttle positions and loads. Nice chocolate brown plugs.

My biggest gripe is the "R" cams aren't exactly what I want. The power is a meaty bottom end like stock Bullet cams with a stronger midrange starts tapering off by 3500. Which at 3600-3800 is the cruising rpms for the speeds on my highways.
These "R" cams have very short duration and a aggressive ramp speed. So they clack away furiously at all engine speeds and sound very hard on the valve gear. The valve train noise is louder than the exhaust, which is straight through. Other cams (Stock and 90023) is the typical Bullet level of valve train noise.

I'm hoping the tamer 200180 Performance Cams are my answer for cams suited for touring.
Just the numbers concern me with my limited, but still learning knowledge on Cams.
Looks like a very narrow lobe separation angle and lots of overlap.
I don't want to run into the reversion problem and have poor next to no idle again.
The bike does have to be street friendly for town riding.

Any information or advice before I spend more money on Cams?
Thanks for your input!

Ben

[Vince2]

Hi, try reverting to the original factory cams. Vince

[Adrian]

Our hosts still list cams under the original Redditch "R" cam part numbers, 39376 and 39378, which I believe are different from the ones Henry Price sells. Otherwise a a set of original Redditch "S" cams as used on the roadster Bullets of the late 50'/early 60's can still give good results (they were listed by the factory as an alternative to the "R" cams for the 500 Fury).

This might interest you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvdtmiAyY9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Hr2ORFFrg

"S" cams aren't in stock new, but good used sets are still around. Retarding the inlet by 1 tooth will lose a little cranking compression but not a huge amount, and as you're running a high-comp piston already that shouldn't be an issue.

Vince2 suggests refitting the Indian cams, you could try that with the inlet retarded one tooth - they're not that different from the "S" cams, though a tuner in the USA found that owing to Chennai's manufacturing tolerances the timing on those if set "on the dots" is a bit variable from cam to cam!

A.

[Modern_Day_Rocker]

Interesting points Adrian.

I'm hoping someone who has had these 200180 Performance Cams installed will chime in, or even an experienced person from Hitchcocks.

I have seen S cams come up on ebay before. But they did sell for a pretty penny.

As for our Indian cams. The timing numbers seem to be all over the place which vary depending what manual you are reading.

From posts on here, the 200180 Performance cams may be what I'm after. In the installation PDF the description is a bit vague on what they actually do other than enhance the 500/535 performance with a freer flowing exhaust and air filter. Which mine has a lot more than that going for it.

Cheers.

Ben

[stinkwheel]

I haven't used that cam but I get where you're coming from on the noisy valvetrain with the high performance item.

I also had an issue with the high performance cam on my 612 bullet where the base circle diameter was smaller than the follower travel. Took a lot of messing about and a few bent pushrods to find it because it sounded like it was detonating under load so I chased a perceived pinking issue for ages. The noise was actually the inlet follower bottoming out on the crankcase and coming off the cam, some light burring of the crankcase casting sorted this out.

In fairness, I find mine runs pretty well at lower revs and even better at higher revs, although I do slip the clutch a lot at low speeds due to tall gearing and a close ratio 4-speed box. It'll happily cruise at 70 on the motorway.

Out of interest. How is yours for cold starting with the TM32? I can't seem to get a good choke jetting on mine for closed throttle cold starting. Usually land up with a barely cracked throttle and no choke. What size choke jet are you using?

[Modern_Day_Rocker]

Thats interesting about how the Hi Performance Cams ran with a 612.
Although with the stroker it may get a lot more healthier vacuum at idle for it to behave compared to a stroke 535cc.
I came to the conclusion those cams are more suited for a 612 stroker engine.

There's a shortage of starter jets at the local Mikuni dealer in Australia. I've gone down from a 60 to a 50. With the 50 it will fire once and stop. So still too rich.

But I've read on the Brit Bike forum for other 500 singles that between a 20 and 30 should be right. I have a 20 and 30 ordered from Allen's.

Upon starting without the choke the AFR is around 14 to 15. Which is lean for these engines. But not super lean. So it only needs a slight bump richer during starting.

[Modern_Day_Rocker]

To give you all an idea.

Top is the standard cams.
Middle is the PricePart "R" Cams.
Bottom is 90023 Hi Performance Cams.

Although the performance on the R cams are good. A little more top end would be nice. If you look closely at the R cams (middle) their profile is fairly flat along the edges with a pointed short dirstion lobe. That's the culprit for all noise, agress ramp speeds for higher valve velocity and the the valves slamming shut under the competition springs tension. To me that racket doesn't sound too healthy.

Stock cams are .0312 on both lift
The Price R cams - 0.350 inlet, 0.330 ex.
Performance 200180 - 0.335 inlet, 0.330 ex.
Hi Performance 90023 - 0.420 inlet, 0.395ex.

I don't have the timing numbers to compare the Price R cams. But from looking the 200180 cams seems like a more middle ground comapre to the racier 90023.

[Adrian]

Our hosts also have a 350 performance cam, which I have heard claimed is similar to the old Redditch "R" cam profile (can't remember who made this claim, it was a while ago now), part no. No. 90160 for a set. This might lack the top-end that you're after for your 535, though. Allowing for the fact that no two tuned Bullets behave or are ever quite tuned identically means you might actually have to try a 200180 set for yourself. Costly business, working your way through all the performance cams.

What's that you say, Skippy? MikuniOz have run short of starter jets? (Sorry, couldn't resist!) They're a good bunch, I ordered a clever flange adapter from them for an AVL Bullet project. Hadn't the heart to tell them I used it to mount a Dell'Orto...

A.

[Meteorstorm]

I tried the 200180's 15 years ago,just went "blah" over 4 k rpm,wouldn't rev out,can you put them in backwards?EX in inlet position? I took them out with less than 20 km's on them,still have them boxed but put a 612 crank in and stock cams and never thought of them again.I should have timed them in perhaps but that's what i found of them on the "dots".
ps
32 mm mk1
free flow shorty
ES deluxe.

[Modern_Day_Rocker]

I tried the 200180's 15 years ago,just went "blah" over 4 k rpm,wouldn't rev out,can you put them in backwards?EX in inlet position? I took them out with less than 20 km's on them,still have them boxed but put a 612 crank in and stock cams and never thought of them again.I should have timed them in perhaps but that's what i found of them on the "dots".
ps
32 mm mk1
free flow shorty
ES deluxe.

Interesting. Did you re-tune and jet the Carburettor to suit the changes made by the cams? Or just popped them in and see how they went? They would only go in one way if they're timed correctly on the dots.

I even found with Price R cams compared to stock cams the main jet on the Mikuni TM32 had to go up 4 sizes larger from a 180 to 220 and drop the needle clip position one leaner from the centre position, it liked it leaner on the needle coming on to the main.

With the 90023 cams I had to go from a 25 pilot to 35 due to the overlap. Main jet was 220.

Stock cams very very conservative with jet sizes.

So they all behave and want to be fed differently at different throttle openings and rpms.

I tune with a AFR gauge. Tells me exactly what's going at all throttle openings, loads and rpms. This engine loves 12.2 to 12.5. I don't have a local dyno. Closest is 4hrs away so this is the next best thing.