This Forum is now CLOSED use the link to get more details viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13924#p102587
User avatar
By Allanfox
#98134
My 500 AVL seems to have developed a smoking habit reminiscent of my old KH 250, fun when I was 17 but less so now!

It has clearly started to wet sump but I am really unsure why?

On cold starting horrific smoke (embarrassing), starts first kick but does really bang out oil smelling dark grey smoke and once I ride off and it clears runs a treat but does sometime conks out before it clears with a very wet oily plug (change plug and away I go). Once cleared and fully warmed up running really well and cruises along nicely at up to 70 relatively smoothly and picks up well, plug a lovely colour.

I am careful about leaving it at TDC but doesn't seems to make any difference, dip stick oil level is just kissing the bottom. I have removed all the catch can gubbins and opened up the cast stub on the crank case and fitted a Hitchcock's breather kit (can be fitted to an AVL if you have the stub) and blanked off the old breather spigot hole at the top of the oil tank. Has all seemed to be working well.

What would be the symptoms of it not breathing correctly, excessive internal pressure and blown seals?

I do think it needs a rebore (winter strip down) as was honed to upper limit to repair piston slap damage but does have reasonable compression when both cold or hot and seem to ride well with lots of torque and clean revving. Not sure if that would create wet sumping though, but more like just general high oil consumption? But guess if there was already wet sumping the oil would get past the piston easier and create the smoke.

Two questions I think, if the timing side crank seal had blown on an AVL engine would that cause the wet sumping regardless of crank/piston position when parked, would it allow the oil in the timing chest to fill the sump?

But as it seem to take a while to clear is it possible my oil pump is not scavenging correctly (remember from another post these engines should scavenge quickly)

I am loving this bike and runs like dream once warmed up, been out for some long rides without issue, if at all only conks out in first 500 yards and then just an oily plug.

Any words of wisdom or comfort much appreciated!
User avatar
By stinkwheel
#98136
If it's wet sumping, when you undo the front crankcase drain bolt after it's sat for a while, you'll get a load of oil out. There's normally about 30ml in there.

Be a good first step to identify if this is the problem or if the oil is coming from elsewhere.
User avatar
By Allanfox
#98137
Thanks, did just occur to me I hadn't done that, started it up earlier but stopped quickly before anyone rang the fire brigade! I will drain it in later and measure the output! :shock:
User avatar
By Adrian
#98138
Unlike the later "iron barrel" Indian Bullets, the Electra-X doesn't have an oil seal behind the timing pinion, (it does on the feed end of the crankshaft) so oil can seep past the main shaft from the timing chest and into the bottom of the crankcase. My old Electra-X wet-sumped happily, but it never caused a problem as the scavenge oil pump always cleared it on start-up BEFORE it could make the white smoke. Check the oil feed from the crankcase to the scavenge filter/strainer is clear, as well as the strainer plug itself.

Assuming the pump itself is OK, the piston/bore/rings would indeed be wroth looking at. RE never made oversize pistons for the Electra-X, but our hosts' oversize EFI 500 pistons can be used.

A.
User avatar
By stinkwheel
#98139
A good trochoidal pump will clear oil very quickly too. I think electras have that type?

That being the case, kicking it over 5 or 6 times before starting should go a long way to removing any surplus oil that's hanging about. On my japanese bikes with a sight glass which have a tiny little trochoidal pump, the oil level drops down out of the sight glass as soon as the starter is pressed, before the engine has even caught.
User avatar
By Allanfox
#98148
Drained the sump last night with engine cold (at TDC) and sure enough within a couple of hours a good 300 ml of oil came out and maybe another 50 since, seems to have stopped now.

Is this about the oil capacity of the timing case, if so does then all make sense that the oil seal has gone. Leaks down quickly after a ride as hot and much slower when cold as above and stop once the timing case is empty.

Doesn't explain why it is not scavenging quickly unless 300ml is just a lot to scavenge and of course it is leaking while the engine is running so the sump is constantly being flooded.

Will it be effecting the effective oil feed to the big end and starving it, better get one ordered post haste!!!

The seal that is fitted is from our hosts and has done less than 1000 miles so a bit disappointing, but I may have damaged it i guess when fitting!
User avatar
By Allanfox
#98152
Just found this in the oil I drained, must have been in the sump and on the outside of the mesh, looks like either a bit of a seal or maybe a bearing cage fragment, either way is certainly engineered and not a good thing to find in your sump! Bad photo as very small (couple of mm) but lined paper for scale, any idea anyone?
Attachments
thing.jpg
thing.jpg (281.43 KiB) Viewed 1316 times
User avatar
By Adrian
#98157
The oil seal at the END of the crankshaft (the one that fits in the timing cover) is supposed to maintain the feed to the big end, leakage from the timing chest itself past the inner half of the main shaft shouldn't affect that at all. I assume it's fitted the right way round, flat side facing inwards?

Any leakage from the timing chest into the crankcase while the engine is running will be small compared to the amount that's being pumped out of the big-end.

I don't recognise the piece of debris you found in the oil, a piece of bearing cage is possible, in which case it's strip-down time. :(

A.

Shop for accessories at Hitchcocks Motorcycles