This Forum is now CLOSED use the link to get more details viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13924#p102587
#96601
Hello

This in my first post here and I know what you are thinking.... a noob with a breather problem.
And that is some what correct. I have had my bike for three years now and I really enjoy riding it, when it works. And I have learned a lot during this time ;)

Bike info: Bullet 500 MY 2005 5 speed 7000km on the clock. Amal 930 carb.

So I have done as good as I can replacing breather hoses because the old ones where a bit dry and had small cracks and the inside was full of "elephant snott", did this solve it, OH NO.

So now I have leveld up a bit. Removed the timing side to check the odd problem with the worm gear seal. And YES it was half way loose, so I found a problem. So orderd new part from our hosts (my only source for parts).
Did a bit of an overhaul on the timing side. New HC oil pumps, new crank shaft seal (since I was taking it apart anyway), new worm gear with a neopren seal and a new gasket of course.

Put it all back together and filled new oil then started the bike, and it started. I had not changed the timing becaus I didn't mark all the positions of the cog wheels. So far so good.
Took the Tapet cover of to see oil coming down from the valves, but no oil. Loosend the banjo on the rocker feed pipe, NO OIL!!!

So now I have taken it apart again tonight. What struck me as odd was that the timing side did not contain any oil compared to the first time i removed it. And the feed pump was full of oil and the return was almost dry.
Now I have lapped the oilpums in again and checked the gasket so it don't cover any of the feed holes.

So I would like some input and your thoughts about what I should do/check as next step. I am running out of ideas if this is not working after I assembled it again.

Cheers
Robert
#96611
Breather issues come round frequently. As yours is a late model pre-EFI with the main breather vent on top of the oil tank (similar to the Electra-X), my suggestion is dump the entire breather assembly, block the catch-can return hose stub at the back of the timing case, and fit this:

Image

A short piece of 90° hose which you might be able to save from the original breather hoses if they're not totally perished, a one-way/non-return valve and a longer piece of M10 hose running to the back of the motorcycle, on my Electra-X I ran it along to the back of the rear chain guard. Not shown: 3 hose clips and the cable tie to secure the far end of the long hose!

Alternatively, if you read up on Allan Fox's recent thread, he was able to re-instate the old breather connection of the left-hand side crankcase and fit one of our hosts' breather kit oil tank filler neck extensions, effectively using the oil tank as its own catch-can.

So the oil is flowing on the feed side but not the scavenge side? This also came up somewhere recently, the owner fitted a new pump which solved the problem, but as you already have a new pump, properly lapped in, presumably you checked the oil pump spindle too, I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.

You say you have checked the oil holes in the (timing cover?) gasket to make sure the gasket isn't blocking anything, but what about the oil passageways in the crankcase casting? There's a M5 or 3/16" drilling from the bottom of the crankcase to the scavenge drain/strainer plug, another couple of drillings from the top of the drain plug chamber to the timing cover joint face, there are the oil passageways drilled in the timing cover itself to and from the scavenge pump, then there's the second set of drillings from the timing cover joint face on the crankcase to the rocker oil feed union, after that there's the rocker feed pipe itself. If oil isn't coming from the banjo fitting when you slacken off the banjo bolts, you could probably stop your investigation there, but it's worthwhile mentioning the rocker assembly, which can also clog with debris. Don't forget the small drain holes at the bottom of the tappet chamber which drain the oil back into the timing chest. Is ALL of that little lot nice and clear of any blockage?

The timing chest should be full of oil once the engines has run for a little while to keep the cams, tappets and timing gears lubricated, it's the overflow from the timing chest that returns to the oil tank.

A.
#96612
It can take some time for the oil to reach the top end via the scavenge pump.

So oil will reach the quill bolt first, via the feed pump, you can check this is working by loosening the quill bolt slightly and waiting for oil to ooze out, then tighten it up again.

Next step is the oil from the feed pump passing through the crank, dropping into the bottom of the crankcase, being picked up by the scavenge pump and being fed to the rockers via the oil pipe. As you have already tried, loosening the banjo bolt will allow you to see when oil has reached this point.

In my experience it can easily take 2 minutes at idle or well over 200 kicks with the sparkplug out for oil to reach this point. It can be quite a scary process.

Here's something to think about though. Once you have identified the oil has reached the quill-bolt/crank, the only place it can go from there is into the crankcase. If the scavenge pump is working, it will pick that oil up and start pumping it to the top end. If it is not working, the crankcase will start to fill with oil. So if you reach a point where you are convinced the scavenge pump is not working, you could try removing the crankcase drain bolt (the front one). Under normal operation, there will only be 30ml of oil in this compartment. If the bike has been running for a few minutes and the scavenge pump is not working, it will contain significantly more.

For there to be oil in the timing case, it first has to have gone to the top end then dropped back down the pushrod tunnel. The timing case will hold about 200ml of oil before it reaches the hole which it returns to the oil tank through. Many people will pour some oil into the timing chest through the tappet inspection cover to speed this process up.
#96617
Have to agree with Stinkwheel in that oil can take longer than you would like to get up to the rocker shafts, I made sure mine were very well oiled pre starting the engine and once running from first start after an engine rebuild I was starting to get worried but after a few minutes the oil appeared. I would just let it tick over for a good few minutes before worrying but squirt plenty inside the shafts before fitting the banjos on the pipe.
#96618
Hello

Thanks for all your input. Now I will check some more things thanks to Adrians post.
One thing that I spotted now after winter was that the oil leaking to air filter box came from the timing side throu the (new)PVT-hose filling the catch tank. That was why I suspected the drive nut for the oil pump.

Sadly I have no time today to continue with the bike but I can share a pict of the faulty drive nut.

Thanks again guys!!!
Robert
Worm nut.jpg
Worm nut.jpg (660.94 KiB) Viewed 1615 times
#96619
You'd almost say that had been forced back out by pressure.

If it was me, I'd check that you can flow oil through the crank by removing the quill bolt, pushing a pump-type oil can aginst the new seal and pumping oil through the crank. It can take a bit of force with a floating bush crank but you chould be able to push oil through (an oil can is able to produce more pressure than your feed pump so if you can't, there's a problem). This would have the added benefit of delivering a bit of oil into the crankcase to prime the scavenge pump.
#96620
Oil pouring out of the air filter is a sign that the main breather hose to the catch-can is blocked, this means crankcase pressure (via the oil tank) now forces the oil in the timing chest back up the return hose from the catch-can, from where it overflows into the air filter housing. This is in spite of the small duck bill flap inside the timing chest, which is supposed to stop this happening, but it fails, miserably.

The whole breather system for the Electra-X and late iron barrel Bullets is a disaster and needs to be ripped out and replaced with something less blockage-prone.

A.
#96624
I would like to share 2 pictures.
The first is from 2019 and I have removed the crank house vent hose and cleared it.
Wonder why this is not working :shock:
Elefant Snor.jpg
Elefant Snor.jpg (53.11 KiB) Viewed 1557 times
This pict is from 2020 after a 20km ride - WITH NEW HOSES!
This is what I got back to after lunch. :twisted: :twisted:
Incontinens.jpeg
Incontinens.jpeg (109.99 KiB) Viewed 1557 times
#96626
Yes, that's precisely what my Electra-X did. If that is after fitting new hoses, there's still the question of what's in the catch-can itself, did you clean that out too? A main breather which is blocked ANYWHERE will result in oil being pumped out the timing chest and ultimately into the air filer box on the factory system.

Like I said in post #96620 , THE WHOLE FACTORY-FITTED BREATHER SYSTEM NEEDS TO GO. Replace it with something simple which is not prone to clog up.

A.
#96674
I have had this breather/oil forced out via the air filter problem several times on my 2005 Bullet. I now keep a sharp eye out when on a run, a quick glance at the silencer/ rear wheel for any sign of oil. Best preventive measure is to pull off the breather pipe, and blow the "mayonnaise" out of it. I have found it necessary to do this regularly, ideally before any run, it's a bit of a chore, but beats being stuck in the middle of nowhere with oil all over the back wheel, and nothing showing on the dipstick ! :shock:

Shop for accessories at Hitchcocks Motorcycles