Pete,
do you have an internet hyperlink to that?
A.
Forum
For Royal Enfield owners and enthusiasts
- Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:34 pm
#95944
- Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:03 am
#95952
Sorry Adrian, I forgot that has been taken down.
Here's the text.
Royal Enfield Classic Bullet
Crankcase breather
Some ideas from Pete Fletcher
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the crankcase breathers fitted to the later RE classic Bullets (after about 2004)
I'm hoping this article will be useful to those who are trying to understand the system.
These are, of course, just my personal thoughts on the subject.
Why do crankcases need to breath?
Think about an engine with the piston at TDC (at the top of it's stroke). There is a certain volume of air in the crankcase underneath the piston.
Now think of the piston at BDC (bottom of the stroke) There is obviously a smaller volume of air in the crankcase so the air will be pressurised.
However good your piston ring seal is there will always be some blow-by from the very high pressure in the combustion space above the piston. This blow-by will also raise the pressure in the crankcase.
If this pressure is not vented it will to try to leak out any way it can - like through your oil seals or any poor seal at a gasket. The leak will take oil with it and cause a messy oil leak.
(I also suspect that high crankcase pressure will tend to stop oil from the oil pump reaching the big end. I've no proof of this but pressure in the crankcase will certainly not help flow of oil from the oil pump)
What does an engine breath out?
1. A certain amount of oil vapour,
2. Blow-by gases from the combustion space (CO and lots of other stuff)
3. Quite a lot of water vapour especially when the engine is cold.
How do the later Bullets breath?
The later bullet models do it like this;
1. There is a hole in the wall between the crankcase and the oil tank so that pressure from the crankcase passes to the oil tank (this is not really an oil tank as such, but the rear part of the main engine casing which is a separate chamber to the crankcase)
2. There is a vent out of the top of the oil tank, which relieves pressure via a black rubber hose into the catch can, which is situated behind the battery.
3. Pressure is vented to the catch can through a duckbill (non return valve) which is inside the catch can.
4. Excess pressure in the catch can is vented through another tube to the air filter in the RH toolbox.
5. Oil (and water) caught in the catch can is returned to the engine via another tube to the back of the timing chest. There is another NRV in this tube so that oil can't blow up from the timing chest into the catch can. (I suspect that oil drains down to the timing side mainly when the engine is stopped) Some people think this is a timing side breather but it's not .
What's this duckbill thing?
The duckbill is a neoprene tube with a flattened end, which acts as a non-return valve. This valve helps to preserve any negative pressure in the crankcase. (generally a good thing for various reasons but I'll keep it simple here)
Problems with this system.
The main problem with this system (even when it's working properly) is that water vapour from the breather will condense in the catch can and be returned to the timing chest.
Another problem is that the drain pipe can suck air into the engine which destroys any negative pressure in the crankcase.
Now, there's and old saying that "oil and water don't mix" but that isn't quite true. If you whisk oil and water together vigorously they will form an emulsion, which has the consistency of mayonnaise and is about as useful as a lubricant. Any water returned from the catch can to the timing side will be vigorously mixed with oil by the timing gears to form this emulsion.
This is not what I want in my engine!
If enough of this goo forms in the catch can and breather pipes it can bung up the drain to the timing side so the catch can fills up and dumps all the crap into your air filter (not good for the filter)
Emulsion forms more in a cold engine and will tend to separate back out if the engine gets to full operating temperature so short runs make the problem worse.
If you do lots of short runs then frequent oil changes will help.
Why does RE make them like that?
I can only assume that it's something to do with emissions control and is an attempt to not dump any oil on the road.
What can you do?
(This is just my opinion remember)
Remove the catch can together with all the piping.
Seal off the drain to the timing side. (some people say a plastic number plate screw does the job with a bit of silicon to seal it. It wouldn't fit mine so I sealed off the pipe and left it in place for now)
Fit a length of 1/2" ID plastic tubing to the vent in top of the oil tank (00 jubilee clip)
Lead the pipe up behind the battery to terminate under the LHS rear footrest and fit a duckbill in the end. (you can take the one out of the catch can or get a new one)
If you prefer, you can extend the tube all the way to the back of the bike over the rear mudguard.
As the engine vents from the crankcase via the oil tank, you should not get more than a slight oil mist out of the back - most of what comes out should be water. If you get any significant amount of oil out the back you may have other problems with the engine.
Some people terminate the vent over the chain so that any oil vapour will help to lubricate it but don't forget that water will be vented on to your chain as well.
What can't you do anything about?
As the engine breathes via the oil tank you will get water vapour in to the oil tank and some of it will condense in there (especially when the engine/oil is cold) It will not form emulsion with the oil too readily as it is not getting thrashed around in there (not like in the timing chest) but it will do to an extent. Most of it should be driven off again when the engine warms up.
The only way I can think to cure this is to fit the breather back where it used to be on earlier models (primary side just below the bottom of the cylinder)
This would require you to drill the crankcase and fit some sort of spigot.
It's something I may do if I ever have the case split but probably not till then.
You could also seal up the hole through to the oil tank (but you would definitely need the case split to do that)
One slight advantage to venting via the oil tank is that it should catch any "globs" of oil which are blown out of the crankcase, so you should only get oil vapour out of the breather.
I say again, this is just my opinion (after looking at lots of other people's ideas on various forums)
It works for me!
Here's the text.
Royal Enfield Classic Bullet
Crankcase breather
Some ideas from Pete Fletcher
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the crankcase breathers fitted to the later RE classic Bullets (after about 2004)
I'm hoping this article will be useful to those who are trying to understand the system.
These are, of course, just my personal thoughts on the subject.
Why do crankcases need to breath?
Think about an engine with the piston at TDC (at the top of it's stroke). There is a certain volume of air in the crankcase underneath the piston.
Now think of the piston at BDC (bottom of the stroke) There is obviously a smaller volume of air in the crankcase so the air will be pressurised.
However good your piston ring seal is there will always be some blow-by from the very high pressure in the combustion space above the piston. This blow-by will also raise the pressure in the crankcase.
If this pressure is not vented it will to try to leak out any way it can - like through your oil seals or any poor seal at a gasket. The leak will take oil with it and cause a messy oil leak.
(I also suspect that high crankcase pressure will tend to stop oil from the oil pump reaching the big end. I've no proof of this but pressure in the crankcase will certainly not help flow of oil from the oil pump)
What does an engine breath out?
1. A certain amount of oil vapour,
2. Blow-by gases from the combustion space (CO and lots of other stuff)
3. Quite a lot of water vapour especially when the engine is cold.
How do the later Bullets breath?
The later bullet models do it like this;
1. There is a hole in the wall between the crankcase and the oil tank so that pressure from the crankcase passes to the oil tank (this is not really an oil tank as such, but the rear part of the main engine casing which is a separate chamber to the crankcase)
2. There is a vent out of the top of the oil tank, which relieves pressure via a black rubber hose into the catch can, which is situated behind the battery.
3. Pressure is vented to the catch can through a duckbill (non return valve) which is inside the catch can.
4. Excess pressure in the catch can is vented through another tube to the air filter in the RH toolbox.
5. Oil (and water) caught in the catch can is returned to the engine via another tube to the back of the timing chest. There is another NRV in this tube so that oil can't blow up from the timing chest into the catch can. (I suspect that oil drains down to the timing side mainly when the engine is stopped) Some people think this is a timing side breather but it's not .
What's this duckbill thing?
The duckbill is a neoprene tube with a flattened end, which acts as a non-return valve. This valve helps to preserve any negative pressure in the crankcase. (generally a good thing for various reasons but I'll keep it simple here)
Problems with this system.
The main problem with this system (even when it's working properly) is that water vapour from the breather will condense in the catch can and be returned to the timing chest.
Another problem is that the drain pipe can suck air into the engine which destroys any negative pressure in the crankcase.
Now, there's and old saying that "oil and water don't mix" but that isn't quite true. If you whisk oil and water together vigorously they will form an emulsion, which has the consistency of mayonnaise and is about as useful as a lubricant. Any water returned from the catch can to the timing side will be vigorously mixed with oil by the timing gears to form this emulsion.
This is not what I want in my engine!
If enough of this goo forms in the catch can and breather pipes it can bung up the drain to the timing side so the catch can fills up and dumps all the crap into your air filter (not good for the filter)
Emulsion forms more in a cold engine and will tend to separate back out if the engine gets to full operating temperature so short runs make the problem worse.
If you do lots of short runs then frequent oil changes will help.
Why does RE make them like that?
I can only assume that it's something to do with emissions control and is an attempt to not dump any oil on the road.
What can you do?
(This is just my opinion remember)
Remove the catch can together with all the piping.
Seal off the drain to the timing side. (some people say a plastic number plate screw does the job with a bit of silicon to seal it. It wouldn't fit mine so I sealed off the pipe and left it in place for now)
Fit a length of 1/2" ID plastic tubing to the vent in top of the oil tank (00 jubilee clip)
Lead the pipe up behind the battery to terminate under the LHS rear footrest and fit a duckbill in the end. (you can take the one out of the catch can or get a new one)
If you prefer, you can extend the tube all the way to the back of the bike over the rear mudguard.
As the engine vents from the crankcase via the oil tank, you should not get more than a slight oil mist out of the back - most of what comes out should be water. If you get any significant amount of oil out the back you may have other problems with the engine.
Some people terminate the vent over the chain so that any oil vapour will help to lubricate it but don't forget that water will be vented on to your chain as well.
What can't you do anything about?
As the engine breathes via the oil tank you will get water vapour in to the oil tank and some of it will condense in there (especially when the engine/oil is cold) It will not form emulsion with the oil too readily as it is not getting thrashed around in there (not like in the timing chest) but it will do to an extent. Most of it should be driven off again when the engine warms up.
The only way I can think to cure this is to fit the breather back where it used to be on earlier models (primary side just below the bottom of the cylinder)
This would require you to drill the crankcase and fit some sort of spigot.
It's something I may do if I ever have the case split but probably not till then.
You could also seal up the hole through to the oil tank (but you would definitely need the case split to do that)
One slight advantage to venting via the oil tank is that it should catch any "globs" of oil which are blown out of the crankcase, so you should only get oil vapour out of the breather.
I say again, this is just my opinion (after looking at lots of other people's ideas on various forums)
It works for me!
Classic C5 Euro 4 at the moment.
Also CBf250.
Also CBf250.
- Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:35 am
#95978
If you have the time and inclination, a search on the forum archives will show quite a lot of keyboard time has been spent on this, almost as much has has been spend actually mucking round with bits of hose and jubilee clips...
A.
A.
- Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:28 pm
#95980
Adrian, So true. I have just fitted the breather kit mod and its pretty straightforward. Having said that there are a few things to be careful with. Firstly the main part of the kit "body&insert" are very well engineered, in fact almost too well as they are extremely tight to push together with the O rings in place and it is easy to damage the quite fine synthetic rubber rings. The problem is that the two grooves machined in to the outer case tube where they fit have not been fettled and are extremely razor sharp, I of course lubricated them with a little oil but when pushed in place they shaved a nick of rubber from one of the rings. It would be nice if our host's could include a spare for what they cost just in case? The next potential problem area is removing the original oil filler neck (but they do state this) mine was rock solid and as I tried to loosen it with a pair of grips it was clear it was going to crush! What I did was, I made a tool by grinding out an old large open end spanner that fitted tightly over and into the two recesses in the folded top of the filler neck, the recesses that secure the dip stick cap. With a piece of wood in the other end of the spanner it loosened with a hard twist. I am pretty sure it had been put in with "thread-lock" The other thing is to not over tighten the knurled section as the more I tightened it just made the third joining O ring pop out off its seating lol. So apart from that it was easy peesy and well worth doing, regards kally
- Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:49 pm
#95985
Might be worth e-mailing our hosts with some feedback if there's any fitting issues regarding the item itself. Obviously the factory wanted the original filler neck to stay put, I think I'd have had a blowlamp on the relevant section of the crankcase for a wee while.
A.
A.
- Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:57 pm
#95986
yes never thought of heating it ! I will pop them an email or give them a call, regards kally 
- Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:28 pm
#96518
Thanks' Kally, Peter and Adrian, just answered my question, I can see the Electra X filler neck is a £10 part so can be wrecked if need be to get off! Just had a big Stillson on it and no movement, really don't want to damage the crankcase threads so time to spark up the blow torch, must have threadlock on it!
2006 Electra X and 2008 350T Bullet Watsonian Trails conversion
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