Forum

[Squadron]

I have a Euro IV C5 for which I have purchased the Hitchcocks carb conversion kit. Not fitted as yet. Am wondering what would be involved in getting rid of all the electronics completely and working out some way of going back to the old Kettering ignition system of points and coil. Perhaps a Boyer instead of points if it would make things easier? All this electronic crap looks to be completely add on and stuffed behind and in the side boxes and I will have no idea of what to do when some of it eventually decides to go belly up! Any ideas on how to turn this electronics complexity into the simplicity these bikes once had?

[Presto]

Not altogether getting the point [not a pun!] about this complaint about the electrics on EFI.

As they say, ‘the clue is in the name’! Electronic Fuel Injection. They weren’t loaded with electrics as an afterthought. That’s the nature of the beast – from the very inception they were designed for electronic ignition and all the electrics that go with fuel injection. (I know that there are home market unit engines with carbs etc. but they are a different recipe.)

Whether the electronics on the EFI's are any good is another matter. But I can think of no benefit in trying to convert an EFI to coil and points ignition. It'd require a complete redesign and a lot of money for no obvious benefit.

It’s one thing to moan – with good reason maybe – about electric vehicles but quite another to want to revert all ICE machines back to coil and points ignition. Do you intend to do that to your car as well?

[PeteF]

Yes, I agree, the EFI stuff does seem to be added on and stuffed in odd corners. The quality of the wiring though, is pretty good. The connection blocks are streets ahead of the old ones.
I was a bit daunted at first but I got myself a Haynes and after a bit of bedtime reading I now have a reasonable idea of what does what. It's not that difficult.
I'm beginning to realise that it's difficult to alter much on these machines. Even changing the exhaust often has knock-on consequences which aren't easily fixed.
You can fit a carb kit but I very much doubt if it will run any better that the injector.
To change back to points ignition? Well, nothing's impossible but there are no kits available and to manufacture your own would be a major undertaking.

[Presto]

It's not just points and coil that you'd need - it's alternator and crankshaft and probably crankcases.

[trophyvase]

The carb kit isn't mainly about extra performance but easier tuning if other changes are made.

[Bullet Whisperer]

You could always sell it and buy an older model, with points, carb, etc. I have no modern bikes directly as a result of their electronics, fuel injection systems etc, which I completely loathe.

[Adrian]

OK, you want points ignition to replace the electronic ignition once you've got a carb on there and dumped or at least isolated the EFI portion of your bike's electronics.

Not sure if this would work the the EFI alternator, but you MIGHT be able to replace the ignition trigger with some kind of contact breaker assembly and some sort of bump on the alternator rotor to act as a points cam, this would give you a wasted spark every other engine revolution, not necessarily a problem. I think it might be easier with the Electra-X alternator rotor.

Not saying it can't be done, but why not just sell your EFI Bullet and buy an earlier model with points ignition? But why stop there, as they still have this new-fangled mechanical auto-advance thing? Stuff that, get a pre-1956 Reddich Bullet with a magdyno and manual ignition!

This is not actually intended as sarcasm, as my current project is based on a set of E/S 500 Bullet crankcases which will be fitted with a manual advance BT-H KC1 magneto.

Failing that, we're left with the hope that our hosts will be selling hot bulb ignition kits, complete with a mounting bracket for the blowlamp. OK, that bit might be sarcasm.

A.

[Presto]

"Not sure if this would work the the EFI alternator, but you MIGHT be able to replace the ignition trigger with some kind of contact breaker assembly and some sort of bump on the alternator rotor to act as a points cam, this would give you a wasted spark every other engine revolution, not necessarily a problem. I think it might be easier with the Electra-X alternator rotor."

If this isn't meant as sarcasm - and I believe you - then it seems to be getting pretty close to the realms of ratified fantasy.
'BUMP on the alternator rotor to serve as points cam'.
Could you elaborate on that?

[Wheaters]

I wouldn't go back to points; over many years I've had more than enough reliability issues with them on cars, not least because modern capacitors seem to be very poorly made and wear out in the box as they sit on the shelf.

The TCI ignition system on my 350 Electra is one thing I've NOT had any trouble with. It runs off the left side crank. No points or capacitor to worry about and a good powerful spark. The one downside is that it's wasted spark, so the exhaust does tend to pop back on the over-run.

[Adrian]

Presto,

my not-sarcastic bit was about buying a pre-'56 Bullet, though I was at least speculatively genuine when I said it might be possible to do what Squadron was proposing. My experience of is with the Electra-X set-up rather than the EFI, but as our hosts' original carb conversions for the EFI Bullets included an Electra-X alternator rotor I'm making an educated guess that the TCI pick-up/trigger is similar even if on the EFI models it's controlled by a full-blown ECU rather than just a TCI black/green box. EFI owners bear with me, if there are enough similarities, great, if not, it's all irrelevant!

The old points set up is replaced by an electronic trigger bolted to the outer primary cover and activated by the magnetic strip on the outer edge of the alternator rotor. What I was suggesting was the possibility of finding a set of old-style points which could be mounted in place of this. The heel of the points would then needed to be lifted by about 0.012" once every revolution of the crank to open them, this will require some sort of lump on the surface of the rotor to act as a points cam. The trigger magnet already on the rotor could perhaps be re-profiled to do this (it has sharp edges) if it's in the right position.

This is all purely hypothetical and I'm happy if someone who actually knows about this stuff wants to explain why it's not viable. The amount of oil splashing around in the primary is one practical downside I can think of as an objection to running a set of points in that location, I don't think our hosts have a belt drive primary kit for the UCE engines.

A.